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  1. #11
    If someone wants to organize and write the core content, I'd be more than happy to provide feedback, suggestions and some of the write-up.

    The v3.0.x launch is still absorbing a lot of time (plus holiday travel). Next up after that is getting the basic user manuals updated, then probably Steam integration.

    Regards,
    JPG

  2. #12
    XML and LUA aside, what is most time-consuming is navigating the FG framework.

    I honestly think that that a thematic Question/Answer section on the forums would be much more beneficial than a step-by-step hold-your-hand tutorial. Of course, the assumption is that the modder already knows XML and LUA, or is willing to learn as needed.

    Let me give an example, using CoreRPG as the underlying ruleset:

    *****
    Q/A Theme: Customizing the Main User Interface

    Question: How do you use custom sidebar icons for players, stories, maps, items, npcs, etc.?

    Answer: The first thing you need to realize is that base.xml loads the following file <includefile source="graphics/graphics_icons.xml" />. In graphics_icon.xml, CoreRPG loads the following sidebar icons:

    <!-- Sidebar -->
    <icon name="button_ct" file="graphics/sidebar/button_ct.png" />
    <icon name="button_ct_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_ct_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_partysheet" file="graphics/sidebar/button_partysheet.png" />
    <icon name="button_partysheet_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_partysheet_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_options" file="graphics/sidebar/button_options.png" />
    <icon name="button_options_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_options_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_tables" file="graphics/sidebar/button_tables.png" />
    <icon name="button_tables_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_tables_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_calendar" file="graphics/sidebar/button_calendar.png" />
    <icon name="button_calendar_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_calendar_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_color" file="graphics/sidebar/button_color.png" />
    <icon name="button_color_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_color_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_light" file="graphics/sidebar/button_light.png" />
    <icon name="button_light_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_light_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_modifiers" file="graphics/sidebar/button_modifiers.png" />
    <icon name="button_modifiers_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_modifiers_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_effects" file="graphics/sidebar/button_effects.png" />
    <icon name="button_effects_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_effects_down.png" />

    <icon name="button_characters" file="graphics/sidebar/button_characters.png" />
    <icon name="button_characters_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_characters_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_book" file="graphics/sidebar/button_book.png" />
    <icon name="button_book_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_book_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_maps" file="graphics/sidebar/button_maps.png" />
    <icon name="button_maps_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_maps_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_people" file="graphics/sidebar/button_people.png" />
    <icon name="button_people_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_people_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_encounters" file="graphics/sidebar/button_encounters.png" />
    <icon name="button_encounters_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_encounters_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_items" file="graphics/sidebar/button_items.png" />
    <icon name="button_items_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_items_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_parcels" file="graphics/sidebar/button_parcels.png" />
    <icon name="button_parcels_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_parcels_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_notes" file="graphics/sidebar/button_notes.png" />
    <icon name="button_notes_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_notes_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_library" file="graphics/sidebar/button_library.png" />
    <icon name="button_library_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_library_down.png" />
    <icon name="button_tokencase" file="graphics/sidebar/button_tokencase.png" />
    <icon name="button_tokencase_down" file="graphics/sidebar/button_tokencase_down.png" />

    All of the name="" icons are part of the FG framework. So what you will need to do is in your own ruleset, create a corresponding graphics_icon.xml file, and make sure that your file="" image corresponds to the name="" icon you want to replace. Then be sure to place your file in the graphics\sidebar folder.
    *****

    I think something like this is clear and straight to the point. Every ruleset has its quirks that you wont be able to satisfy all ruleset from just one particular guide. However, a Q/A organized thematically could be much more beneficial. Even if you don't see exactly what you want to do answered, there is the possibility of a Q/A close enough to what you want to do that all you need is a push in the right direction. The last thing a modder wants to do is to waste hours reading a step-by-step guide only to find out that what he/she wants to do isn't covered. A quick glance at the Q/A will let the modder know if the info is available within minutes, and if not, then post the question and someone will respond.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by malvok View Post
    I won't discuss alternate VTTs as this is a FG forum, but you're wrong about FG being the only VTT capable of handling different games.

    And I don't see why people are against the idea of a tutorial. How is a tutorial a bad thing?

    Also, the insinuation that anyone who thinks a tutorial is a good idea is somehow a simpleton incapable of designing a ruleset is pretty lame.
    I dont think anyone thinks a tutorial would be a bad thing - its just not trivial - trivial isnt even in the same book...
    as to other VTT's, the ones i have tried, can handle other rulesets - sure - but they dont do it any better than using the core ruleset - or require you to do some programming. you can play any game you like using the core ruleset - you just dont get the automation or all the included source material. automation requires some serious work.
    i would suggest that better than 99% of FG license holders could not program a full ruleset - i dont think anyone is insinuating that 99% of us are simpletons. you *need* to be a programmer, think like a programmer, and be able to commit lots of time to take on a complex task like developing a ruleset with automation. changing graphics is relatively easy compared to automation. the games that we play have so many variables and permutations and dependencies - easy for complex human brains to manage - bloody hard to code.
    i would love to learn how to do this - and I reckon if I gave up my job for a year I could possibly learn enough to do it - but that is not going to happen... not for at least 20years any way!
    the ruleset builder project would be amazing if it can come to fruition - but even that i think is still limited to graphics and buttons etc at this stage and would then require coding on top of that.
    the fact that lots of people want to develop rulesets is a great thing but not an easy one.

    the replies here definitely werent intended to flame anyone or any ideas. ideas and discussions are good

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Qai View Post
    I honestly think that that a thematic Question/Answer section on the forums would be much more beneficial than a step-by-step hold-your-hand tutorial.
    Several issues with this:

    - As moon_wizard (and the very very few others who truly knows what they are doing) can't possibly monitor everything, we'll be getting tricks and workaround that might work but aren't the best possible way to address a point.
    - Without heavy hands-on moderation, it will be impossible to search effectively. Meaning the same questions will be asked again and again, threads will bi hijacked, buried, possibly quite a mess.
    - Doesn't do much for the steep learning curve. The hardest steps in FG are the first ones.

    I do think a clean, moderated, sub-forum for Ruleset-Modules development & customization is a good idea. But not solely.

    A tutorial would help beginners more I believe.

    Let's start small(ish), with something concrete:

    - being very precise writing it
    - explaining each step along the way, apart from pure non-FG point (like why <…/> or <>…</> in XML, things like that)
    - fully using Core and the ruleset layering/cascading new capability
    - doing it clean, scalable, expendable, the “right” SmiteWorks way
    - if needed pointing out things like potential optimizations, memory or bandwidth or whatever resources possible issues
    - not overwriting/merging anything unnecessary (in this new ruleset layering paradigm)
    - starting literally with a blank page

    who could explain to a full beginner either :

    - How to modify how dice tests are made to make something more complex, let's say oWoD tests
    - How to add skill lists to the Character sheet (a few categories, several pre-filled skills, each category with as many player created ones as need)

    Those two are both pretty basic needs, and can be linked together after (click on the score of those shiny new skills, that trigger the new dice tests system).

    And those two are both being needed right now by beginners and very old ruleset coder still stuck in 2.0 mode, and could help us having something concrete to debate, improve, and show new FG users.
    Last edited by Blacky; December 27th, 2013 at 21:17.

  5. #15
    Trenloe's Avatar
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    Great idea. Who's going to write it?
    Private Messages: My inbox is forever filling up with PMs. Please don't send me PMs unless they are actually private/personal messages. General FG questions should be asked in the forums - don't be afraid, the FG community don't bite and you're giving everyone the chance to respond and learn!

  6. #16

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    Can we get a tutorial for writing Extensions too? That might be easier than a full blown rule set tutorial
    Support:
    https://support.fantasygrounds.com/
    Have a suggestion for a feature? Go here https://fgapp.idea.informer.com

  7. #17
    It's a great idea guys, but I think that, in all reality, its going to be impractical, for the following reasons (some of which are pointed out above):

    1) Who is going to create it?
    If you'd checked out my Tutorial YouTube Channel (link in my Sig) you'll have noticed the date when the videos were created. You'll have also noticed that there are large periods of time between the dates - this is because each one takes TIME, and the time isn't in the recording, its in the writing of the scripts ie it takes a lot of effort to write the damn thing. I suggest that a written Tutorial like originally suggested would take a similar amount of time. Not everyone has that time.

    2) Programming Knowledge
    I don't know how many of you are professional programmers, or even armature programmers, but as a professional trust me when I say that to create a Ruleset in any significant way WILL require programming skills (ie XML, LUA and just the basic "mentality" of a programmer). I tutor at one of the local Universities here in Brisbane, Australia, and what we're talking about is basically the level of knowledge that you would have after 12 months of study in an undergraduate program - don't believe me - have a look at this link (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...209#post153209) which is the level of knowledge you need to draw a different shaped pointer on an image/map.

    3) Complexity of FG
    Fantasy Grounds is a complex piece of software - I know, I've reversed engineered it so that I could understand how it all fits together so that I could write my Übergame Ruleset. Its complex in that a given functionality is often spread across two or more files, some XML and some LUA. This means that finding the correct files to modify/over right/etc is a non-trivial task - which is not improved by the new ability to "layer" rulesets - it literally means often going through the files line by line, so a tutorial would have to do this as well.

    This issue comes up all the time in the business world, where people ask why something that seems so simple takes so long to program - what they don't realise is that the reason it seems simple is that the programmer has spent a lot of time writing complex code to make it look simple - the rule of thumb in coding is that the simpler it is for the end-user the more time, effort and code it will take to do.

    Its a bummer, but that's why good programmers are the third most highly paid professionals in the world (on average after dentists and psychiatrists) - not everyone can do it and it takes several years to learn - can you take several years of knowledge and training and put it in a document?

    Just my $0.02 worth
    Dulux-Oz

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  8. #18
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    What dulux-oz said... Take a look at a typical Sams "Teach Yourself XXX in 24 hours book" and you'll see that the books are large format books typically well over 500 pages and people make money spending months writing these books. OK, I'm not saying that something like that is wholly necessary for FG, but for it to be truly useful to newbies and rookie FG developers it would have to be close to that - covering XML, LUA, FG database format and access, FG controls, FG operations, Ruleset Layering, Extensions, FG API, variable scope, GM vs Player vs Local (Manage Characters) mode, asynchronous programming, OOB messages, etc., etc., etc.... And then this would have to be updated every 1-2 years as rulesets and FG changes...

    Regarding extensions in particular:

    There is a "Ruleset Modification Guide" to get people started, and that has info on extensions: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/modguide/

    And there are plenty of extension examples available on this forum. Here are a few that have been written/updated for the new FG 3.0 CoreRPG ruleset (and rulesets layered on top of CoreRPG): https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...RPG-Extensions

    Ruleset organisation:

    This thread is quite good in giving a high level overview of where files are stored in a ruleset. It was specific to the FG 2.9.4 3.5e ruleset, but a lot of this information is relevant to FG 3.0 CoreRPG (and derived) rulesets: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...-PFRPG-ruleset

    The main thing that changes in post #2 is that the charsheet "stuff" is now contained in the campaign directory.
    Last edited by Trenloe; February 7th, 2014 at 09:12.
    Private Messages: My inbox is forever filling up with PMs. Please don't send me PMs unless they are actually private/personal messages. General FG questions should be asked in the forums - don't be afraid, the FG community don't bite and you're giving everyone the chance to respond and learn!

  9. #19
    I'd be happy with just documentation on the CoreRPG ruleset design, not the controls and components, but the logic that is used to specifically to make them run. Also, it's worth noting that one of the hardest things for a new designer to understand with the built-in rulesets is the coding and naming convention used in the lua. This is entirely the prerogative on the original/current developers and it is not a necessity to use the conventions existing in the rulesets; thus a new programmer may not have ever been exposed to that particular coding standard.
    I never claimed to be sane. Besides, it's more fun this way.

  10. #20
    If it is true that 99% of users will not be able to customize Fantasy Grounds to support different RPGs, then perhaps this part of the feature listing should be removed.

    "A 3.5E fantasy ruleset accompanies the product but the appearance and function can be fully customized to accommodate almost every RPG system."

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