Season 5 Chronicle sheets discussion

[Skellan]

No it isn't. The gm doesnt need to request to see them if he hasnt got time to look at them. This is up to the gm.
Its like a player having their chronicle sheets in a bag and the GM saying 'Can I see your chronicle sheets?' and the player says ' Sure, here you are.'
It doesn't say anything about being visible. That implies that the gm is checking them as he can see them. It say available, which means they are there if the gm asks to see them.

Asking players to provide stuff you have no intention of looking at is just silly. There's no difference between players having their chronicles in a drop box or in a bag as long as they are available if the gm asks to see them. We are a virtual community after all

[Trenloe]

You seem to be getting hung up on the "if there is time" mention later in the PFS guide. This is referring to doing a mini audit - not to confirming that a player has their chronicle sheets with them.

There is no "if there is time" clause associated with the "If you forget your Chronicle sheets, you will be unable to play your character" rule.

It is completely arguing semantics and leaping to conclusions that "Keep good records of your character and make sure to bring all of your Chronicle sheets to every event or session of Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you forget your Chronicle sheets, you will be unable to play your character" does not include having to show them to the GM or organiser to prove that you have them with you.

As stated numerous times above, I am not asking you to do a mini-audit. I am asking each GM to follow the rules of only allowing players that prove they have their chronicles to play.

I am asking GMs to follow the rules as outlined in the PFS Guide. Just because these may not occur elsewhere does not mean that we should ignore them here.

[Skellan]

No you aren't asking players to follow pfs rules.
You are obligating gms to check the previous chronicle of each player. No where does it say gms are required to do this.
It does say that players need to have chronicles available and I am not disputing that, nor am I disputing that they cannot play if they don't have them. I am disputing the fact that it doesn't say anywhere that gms must check or see every players last chronicle.
It says that gms may check chronicles if they have time and that players must have them available should a gm request to see them. This is perfectly in line with pfs rules, and this is how we should be doing it.

[Trenloe]

No you aren't asking players to follow pfs rules.
You are obligating gms to check the previous chronicle of each player. No where does it say gms are required to do this.
It does say that players need to have chronicles available and I am not disputing that, nor am I disputing that they cannot play if they don't have them. I am disputing the fact that it doesn't say anywhere that gms must check or see every players last chronicle.
It says that gms may check chronicles if they have time and that players must have them available should a gm request to see them. This is perfectly in line with pfs rules, and this is how we should be doing it.

OK, cool.

As a Pathfinder Society Venture Lieutenant I will be personally asking all players who sign up for games on the boards to send me their last chronicle. If they can't do this, I will request them to not play in the game and instruct the GM to not let them play. This is completely within my right as a Venture Officer and based off the PFS Guidelines.

This is taking all of that responsibility away from the GM and putting it within the PFS organised play hierarchy.

Is that what you want?

[Skellan]

That is just being awkward because you cannot show that what I am saying is contrary to the pfs rules. Its just an abuse of power. If you genuinely believe how I am running games is odds with the pfs guide then you should take it up with me rather than hassling poor players.

All I want is to for us to play by the rules and not the ones you want to impose because you think they are better.

If it is your intent to bog everyone down with bureaucracy through your position as a VL, go ahead, knock yourself out.

[Skellan]

Another word for it would be harassment

[Trenloe]

I do genuinely believe that a GM should check that a player has brought their chronicle sheets to the game - a visual check that they actually have brought the sheets with them. For online games this is being able to provide the GM with electronic copies - and I believe that a GM should ensure that the player does that.

However, as you have pointed out above - nowhere in the PFS guide does it say that this is a GM's responsibility. So, I will take that responsibility away from the GM and make it mine - if the GM doesn't want to ask for the previous chronicle themselves.

If a GM would like to continue as we do now and ask for a digital copy of the PC's last chronicle and not release the chronicle for their scenario until they see it then that is great and they can continue as we have in the past. If a GM feels that this is not their responsibility then a PFS coordinator will take on that responsibility for them.

Being able to produce all of the chronicles for a PC is a clear requirement to be able to play. So, in asking for the last one in order to allow a PC to play is not an abuse of power in the slightest - it is completely within my right and is nothing more than I am asking other GMs to do.

I have escalated this matter within Paizo PFS and have additionally asked that the PFS guide have an amendment to say that checking that a player has the chronicle sheets for their PC before being allowed to play is added to the list of GM responsibilities. We will see what comes of these 2 requests.

I honestly feel that what I have been asking, and what we have been doing successfully for a number of months, is completely within the rules and guidelines of the PFS guide. I do not want one GM going completely against this as that will be a message to other GMs that they can do the same.

I have offered to take this responsibility off GMs and that was seen as not being good enough. But, I feel that this requirement is the foundation of having clear, correct and auditable PFS chronicle sheets within the PFS community on Fantasy Grounds so I will take that responsibility off the GMs and do it myself. This is not an abuse of power, it is my effort to stop things getting to the point where it may be that *every* chronicle sheet will be required, and keeping going with what has been successful so far.

Unfortunately, arguing semantics has had the effect of backing me into a corner and forced my hand. I am not being awkward and doing this to win an argument - I am doing this because I feel this is the best thing we can do to keep things organised and correct without going overboard and checking all chronicle sheets.

I will not be bogging anything down with bureaucracy beyond what we already have now.

[Nickademus]

Another word for it would be harassment

You're going a little overboard now. A lawful neutral organization that adds and changes criteria to be better run in its view is not harassment. What Trenloe is saying is no different than the errata and FAQ points that Mike Brock makes to amend the guidebook.

If you don't like it, fine. There are a lot of things about the structure of Society Organized Play that I don't like. But Trenloe is at least offering to make this requirement easy for the GMs by doing it himself. So it is theoretically no change for you.

And speaking of change, I find the whole argument that the Guide has no requirement for the GM to look at chronicles holds very little weight since up until 5 days ago it did. The change to merely recommending it is new.

Page 30: Under Your Duties as a Game Master,
updated the third bullet point to read, “It is
recommended that you look over each player’s
character sheet and previous Chronicle sheets,
quickly checking wealth, equipment, calculations,
and so on if time permits.”

I think you're making this out to be a much bigger deal than it needs to be. It's not like 85% of Society GMs/players actually follow the rules anyway.

[Nightfiend]

I am agreeing with Nickademus here. If Trenloe was demanding every GM to review ever past chronicle sheet of every player I would say, time might be an issue. I do think this should be done from time to time, but I don't think every game. As fare as reviewing the last chronicle sheet of a player, I don't think you could even complete a new chronicle without looking over their last sheet.

Skellan: I think, in some regard you might feel that Trenloe is questioning your judgment as a GM, by making it more of a demand then a request. That will generally make a GM feel unappreciated. I know from past experience, properly setting up a game takes a lot of effort. Although I haven't yet played in one of your games, I have little doubt you probably spend a lot of time and effort to provide a good game. This doesn't even take into account the effort to understand and create a FG version of the game. If any of this sounds somewhat correct, then rest knowing that anyone putting that much effort into creating a game for us to enjoy, is appreciated A LOT.

We can't have positive changes unless we are open to change. This means enduring change in general. We can't improve if we are not open to corrective criticism or new ideas. If it sucks in the long run I'm sure Trenloe will be the first to correct it.

[lachancery]

Skellan, with all the great respect I have for your past contributions to the PFS FG community, I believe you need to back down.

As a GM, like Blackfoot, I have found it beneficial to get the latest chronicle sheet to ease my PFS GM admin tasks - completing valid chronicle sheets and reporting the game on Paizo's site.

Earlier in the thread, Trenloe has sensibly left the door open for you to use different ways to produce valid chronicle sheets. You have then crusaded against the need to request the latest chronicle, which Trenloe has also offered to take off your shoulders by doing it himself.

In a separate thread weeks ago in this forum, Trenloe also offered to assist GMs in their admin duties, and left the door open to how that help could be provided; a GM only needs to contact him.

As our official VL, Trenloe has remained curteous, professionnal and has done all that he could think to reduce the admin burden on our PFS GMs. Calling him abusing his power and labelling it harassment is, from my viewpoint, not only unfair, but a rather rude answer to the help he's offered.

For myself, an active PFS GM (this summer anyway), unless I am asked not to request the latest chronicle sheet, I will continue to ask for it. I will try your idea of asking players to fill out the chronicle sheet template to help me out, and see what success I get.

I have fond memories of all the scenarios you used to run, Skellan. If what's stopping you from running them again is the admin, I will join Trenloe in offering my assistance to take that burden off your shoulders. I would really love to see many PFS games being run over FG, and see our community grow.