If you would be interested in an official Classic ruleset along the lines of OSRIC, please tell us.
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If you would be interested in an official Classic ruleset along the lines of OSRIC, please tell us.
Yes please.
I'd certainly be interested!
Yes
I'm interested in an OSRIC or Labyrinth Lord one.
What Lokiare is actually asking is if the AD&D ruleset were renamed as OSRIC and made an official ruleset. OSRIC and AD&D are essentially the same game. But, if they made it official, they would need to change the name of the ruleset to avoid any entanglements with WotC.
I abstain, though you know my feelings already.
As long as the resulting ruleset can do everything it needs to.
Yes, please!
Now that I have a little more time, let me explain a bit what has been going on.
With regards to asking about an OSRIC official ruleset, the point is they are trying to judge interest in classic D&D products (non-TSR mind you, but some of the creative stuff from the OSR).
My feeling regarding making the AD&D ruleset official is that I don't see the need and don't really want to give up the freedom of that having community ruleset status provides with regards to certain things, like not having to change the name and such. I also feel that I can take care of my user base on a quicker and more direct basis as things are right now. However, If making it official and changing the name to something that would keep us lower down on the radar from WotC will allow us to publish some of the OSR modules and such, then I'm not against it either.
At the same time, however, what I had proposed to Smiteworks was to have what I call C&C+ products. They would be OSR (originally from OSRIC, LL, S&W etc) adventure modules that have been officially converted with permission from the module creators for use in the C&C ruleset, but that also provide "Bonus" material or "Bonus" mode of play, so that you will also have the resources available to play that module in any of our rulesets that are based on the original or first edition of the worlds oldest roleplaying game. In other words, one module that can be loaded into several rulesets and has the necessary npc stats and items etc for that game.
For example, if I were to convert Expeditious Retreat Press's https://www.lulu.com/shop/matthew-fi...t-4294509.html to be a C&C module, I would also provide the necessary means to run it in the AD&D ruleset, S&W ruleset, DCC RPG ruleset, Basic Fantasy etc. This extra features and material would be soley the responsiblity of the module converter and ruleset creator to ensure works and not Smiteworks responsiblity. Smiteworks responsibility would be to ensure the official material works in their official ruleset and nothing more. This approach is in the spirit of the OSR movement to allow use of adventure material in whatever variation of rules that you prefer.
Smiteworks is trying to decide to either say, no, just keep things with C&C, or well, let's possibly make the AD&D ruleset as a classic OSRIC official ruleset and leave it at that. What I am trying to do is to open things up to work with various rulesets. They have not bought into that idea yet.
Now is your time to speak up. I know the crowd that enjoys older games is in the minority, but now is the time to stand up and be counted and vocal for what you want.
Additionally, as a provision for consenting to convert some of these works for the module creators, we are obtaining permission to do conversions for Pathfinder and 5e, so if you would like to see some alternatives to some of the 6 month long, expensive hardback, Epic Fantasy adventures coming out of Paizo and WotC for your favorite modern game, you won't be left out, so voice your opinion here also.
Yes for me too
I would buy a classic ruleset or three. I probably wont run that much stuff with any of them because I have only got so many gaming hours and they be full but I would still grab one (or more) if it were available :)
Again, the issue really isn't about having an official classic ruleset, whether it be C&C, a rebranded AD&D to OSRIC or whatever. That is one possible route, the one that it seems Smiteworks is pressing for, if they allow any change at all, but really doesn't address the potential we have and meet all possible needs.
Let's say we did get an official OSRIC ruleset; that doesn't help someone that prefers Basic Fantasy or something else. They would be locked out of the content.
Up until now, the official position has been 1) only to allow one module to support one ruleset 2) that ruleset had to be an official ruleset 3) the module being converted had to originally be made for that ruleset. 4) because of 1, 2 and 3, no support at all was allowed for community based rulesets.
That is why C&C users are so limited in modules that come their way. That is why there is no possibility for ever seeing an S&W module even though there are agreements in place with Frog God Games for other items. That is why Expeditious Retreat can not get any of their very well recieved classic modules published here, even though they really want to see that happen. Etc.
I have done the work to make all those things possible, but none of that will happen if Smiteworks can not be convinced to allow it.
I mostly want to see modules that are usable as part of the OSR-style rulesets. I'm less concerned with official ruleset support for OSR but am hopeful that there can be some kind of middle ground established so that your idea, vodokar, to do C&C+ modules, becomes something more. I freely admit that the S&W ruleset would benefit from your idea. I would love to see all the FGG S&W stuff available for Fantasy Grounds but I know there isn't really a market for it but this would at least provide some support for the OSR community within FG.
Well, that hits to the heart of this thread.
The central questions are: 1) if we spent our time bringing you a classic style adventure module that worked with C&C and various other similar rulesets and Smiteworks allowed them to be published, would anyone have interest in buying them and 2) if we spent our time converting them to Pathfinder and/or 5e, would anyone have an interest in that.
No one expects they will sell the same as WotC or Paizo products. But, would there be a market for them at all. That is what Smiteworks and the community developers are trying to find out.
It's basically a chicken and egg issue. Smiteworks is assuming that there would be no interest in it. If there is, people need to speak up. If there isn't, it certainly doesn't make sense to have any of us spend time making a product no one wants. But, people need to speak up, either way.
I always buy content I like. I would buy AD&D modules or OSR modules or Swords and Wizardry modules, etc.
My main problem is time to run them. But I would buy them anyways.
I dont buy a lot of content but yes I think that is a solid idea.
A very valid question would be - should these multi-ruleset modules cost more? I think they should - maybe make them 10-15% more and pay that to the converter who is doing extra conversion work and might actually make it worth while...
Yeah if I could buy GDQ1-7 for example and use it with C&C I'd be all over that.
But, those are TSR modules and thus, off limits.
There are tons of new material that has been written since then that is also extremely good and isn't off limits. But, it will never see the light of day if people do not speak up. It is said that the OSR has produced more material in the last 10 years than TSR ever published in their entire existence.
You have my vote!
I'd be interested in any Old School products -- more so in rulesets than modules, though. I have a particular 30-year old campaign with players scattered all over that would love an AD&D ruleset, or OSRIC as a close 2nd. The nature of the campaign is that it's filled with homebrew content, and thus modules aren't as important. But C&C isn't close enough for the DM, so we need a ruleset more than anything if FG is to be a part of this campaign.
Where have you been Dr. Venture? The AD&D ruleset has been out since January. Get it here . And, I'm working on Basic Fantasy right now. BF is kind of a hybrid middle ground between C&C and AD&D. And Zhern is close to a release of Swords and Wizardry.
Doc you need to come out from under that rock more often!
I agree, we've missed you, Doc. Hey, I just realized. I literally had "just what the Doctor ordered".
Finally purchased my Ultimate license after checking out the demo every few years for the last decade or so. :)
If there was an official ruleset, I'd prefer it be in a simpler system than OSRIC/AD&D. S&W, if I'm understanding the "what modules are permitted" guidelines right, would let FGG content in -- which is fairly prolific. LL would be the same, and both have their megadungeons available if you can get publisher permission (FGG seems chomping at the bit then, right, so there's a ton of megadungeons to one shots available to produce)
Or there's LL, which obviously has a ton of free/paid modules, as well as a number of "epic megadungeony" products too, although you'd have to hunt down the authors separately. Stonehell Dungeon (Michael Curtis), Barrowmaze (Gillespie), Dwimmermount (Autarch maybe holds the rights to the module...not sure)
I think one benefit to having a supremely simple, but official ruleset like S&W (or nearly as simple with LL) would be the ability to have an official ruleset that content creators/converters could work on at a much faster pace. Both of those rulesets have a number of "official" or "officially compatible" products so there would be an opportunity to generate revenue, and the rulesets themselves would be simple enough that adding any unofficial/impossible-to-support content would be a snap for crotchety grognards not wanting too much complexity, as well as newcomers who can learn the content ropes without the complexity of the other official systems.
Hell, a S&W or LL official set could be set at a lower-than-traditional price for a ruleset as a kind of stepping stone from CoreRPG -- a light framework with some automation and full system support which would still be basic enough to produce shorter video tutorials, a better learning curve, and maybe even ramp up the amount of content creators.
You could even have a suggested progression of like CoreRPG, get your 5E player pack on, play some games, and while you're at it, here's a simpler system to get you started building (while introducing people to the OSR, and just generally that other RPG systems exist)
Having that 'official, very lite' system in place could reduce attrition, too. It's cool if they bought the UL like I did, but it would really suck if everything in the ecosystem is highly complex and requires quite a bit of time and effort to build on for those not deeply familiar with the tools. Maybe one of the 0E or B/X systems like those mentioned would help people move more quickly from the "I love playing this with 5E but can't get over the hump with DM'ing 5E or creating my own stuff" or keep them entertained til they're comfortable with the toolchains needed to really make something solid.
Super-rambly, sorry. It's late/early.
Zhern is currently working on S&W and is getting pretty close to release. He currently doesn't have any plans to make it an official ruleset, however.
With regards to modules, all of the OSR modules, whether originally created for 0e-like games, Bx-like games or 1e-like games or even modernish take's on old-school play, such as DCC RPG or C&C are all laid out with very similar stat-blocks and are extremely easy to port to any of the OSR game systems by design. It is technically feasible to support many of the game systems very easily and simultaneously with the same module.
But, what is technically feasible doesn't matter. What matters is what people will buy. Because SmiteWorks believes that no one will buy OSR modules, they won't publish them. There is very little support even for C&C. Nothing is going to change that unless there are people actually willing to let them know that products like these would be desired and purchased.
There are plenty of people out there that play OSR games. The problem is, few of them use Fantasy Grounds to do it. I've tried everything I know how to let those people know they are welcome here and there is something here for them, but, unless the population of OSR playing people increases, there is very little chance of getting any of the published material.
The community developers can build the rulesets. We enjoy building them. People do play them. But, not enough to be able to call it a market worthy of getting any adventure or manual support, from SmiteWorks standpoint. Don't assume that even if one of those rulesets were given official status that that automatically means they will receive a lot of module conversions. If the first one or two were published and didn't sell, there wouldn't be any more. So, official status doesn't really mean much.
95%+ of the products published by Smiteworks are not developed by SmiteWorks. They rely on community developers to convert the product/module/whatever into Fantasy Grounds. You made a comment "There is very little support even for C&C." - this is because community developers aren't creating content for it, not because of some SmiteWorks decision - I don't think SmiteWorks themselves have ever produced module content for C&C, it's always been developers outside of SmiteWorks who do the work, and they usually decide themselves which products they convert.
You seem to have the opinion that it's SmiteWorks lack of interest that there aren't products for OSR gaming. From my experience it is not that at all - there are two things that are needed for any product to be Published by Smiteworks: an agreement with the copyright holder and (and this is a big AND) there needs to be community developers ready, willing and able to convert products to Fantasy Grounds.
My take on what Trenloe just said is Rappan Athuk for S&W needs to happen!
With all due respect, and you know how much I respect you, Trenloe, it isn't my opinion. I made a submission of an OSR module conversion for C&C and was told by Smiteworks they wouldn't publish it. I pushed back, and they said they would talk over the policy internally, but no decision has been made as of yet. This thread specifically resulted from that.
In this case, I am much more familiar with the facts of the matter than you are. That's a rarity, but true in this case. This thread, clearly, was meant to gage the potential of such products in this marketplace to aid their decision.
I am very much wanting to work on such projects. I was offered by Joseph Browning, the entire line of Expeditious Retreat modules to work on, with permission to do conversions for C&C, and even 5e and Pathfinder. There is a lot at stake right now with this thread.
With regards to C&C products from Troll Lord Games, point me in the right direction, I am willing to work on them. I have no idea what anyone else might be working on or not working on.
Reach out to the usual suspects at SmiteWorks. If they give you the go ahead I'm sure they'll give you an idea of what people are working on (that they are aware of), and you could also post in the C&C forums to see if anyone will update you on anything they may be working on - I know Talyn, Varssuk and Mortar have mentioned at various points that they might be doing some C&C conversion work.
I'm probably behind the curve here (not unusual), but maybe we should throw a chat room up on the Discord server so that this kind of stuff can be talked about in semi-real time?
I'd be very much interested in an official classic/osr ruleset and some modules to go with it. I'm hoping to run an OSR hex crawl via FG in the near future.
I loved AD&D, but wouldn't buy a ruleset. Now, old school conversions to 5E, that's something I'm all for and would (within limits) spend money on.
I know you're trying to make a point... and galvanize some support... for something... but I have to be honest... I don't feel like I'm getting the full picture here.
If Smiteworks rejected something, I'm feeling like there are reasons that are not being fully articulated in this thread.
The biggest barrier to that starts with a W and ends with a C and has an ot in the middle, I believe (I could be wrong). I too would be interested in the conversions, in fact, I do quite a few myself (as my signature notes, I'm currently running Caverns of Thracia mixed with The Lost City for my 5e group).
It is this simple. i submitted a module that was originally formatted for OSRIC that I converted for use with C&C. After over 3 weeks without having my submission being acknowledged, I finally was able to drag an answer out of someone. I was told that they would not accept it because OSRIC was not an officially supported ruleset.
When I made my submission, I made it very clear that it was formatted for C&C. I pointed that out to them once again and was told to stay in a holding pattern until they decided if they wanted to publish it or not. Apparently they have never had someone convert stat blocks for a different game before and they don't have a policy on it. Likewise, they don't have a policy regarding if the module can be read and utilized in more than one ruleset.
That very same day, this thread was posted. I've made it very clear that I had no plans to make my ruleset official or to change the name in order to do so; and I certainly have no plans to make someone pay for using the ruleset that I am currently not charging people to use. The fact that they even think that an OSRIC ruleset would be necessary to run the module I gave them just shows the lack of knowledge about OSR games.
Firstly, just in case anyone doesn't know, the difference between an OSRIC or AD&D stat block and a C&C stat block is basically only two lines different: a different value for exp points awarded and the AC is reversed (Ascending vs. Descending). Yet, simply because the origin of the module was not from Troll Lord Games and not originally formatted for C&C, that is apparently enough to not publish it.
At any rate, I have made a decision. If Smiteworks doesn't want to publish OSR modules for Fantasy Grounds in the Fantasy Grounds Store, I will simply go around them and partner with the module creator to sell them on RPG Now or some other outlet.
Hey vodokar there is more to it than that - there is also a whole set of practicalities/realities in accepting contributions of other products to the store and their limited man power to proof them all and then support them all if the underlying systems change and the converter is no longer able or willing to keep the product updated etc. You can publish on RPGNow - I believe that SmiteWorks will still get a smaller percentage of the sale but will also not have to verify/update etc the product.
I too have found the thread confusing to follow at times but I think what its intent is:
You want to make modules (typically old school modules) and include stat blocks for CnC (supported system) and also ADnD (community), SW (community - yet to be completed) and maybe DBD (yet to be completed). You (and Smiteworks) want to know if there is a market for this big enough for SW to spend their resources (time) on.
Thanks, Damned. Yes, I am aware that there are investments in Smiteworks time for proofing, and also aware that there is the issue of support of the product. This is something that I have discussed with Smiteworks.
You are correct that I ultimately want to do modules that support all the various old school rulesets, as well as, potentially doing conversions of the modules for 5e, at the very least.
In this case, for my first submission, however, it was definitely a C&C product, albeit that since it can inherently be read and used in my ruleset that layers over C&C, it can also be truthfully stated that it inherently supports that ruleset as well. I made the submission before I had even thought of making the tools to support the other rulesets and so on.
At any rate, to be clear, I am not upset at Smiteworks or anyone there. I have specifically avoided using names of anyone concerned. They have their own business to run and choices to make as they see fit for that business. I don't blame them, other than simply that I don't think they really understand the old-school rulesets or the OSR scene.
It's a little frustrating, because you know how hard I have worked on the project and you, personally, have seen the work I submitted to them.
Nonetheless, as it stands now, I'll publish it in the store if they want it. Otherwise, I'll work out something else. I'm not going to pass up the offers I have had to put out the material I have been requested to work on simply because Smiteworks doesn't understand the product or feels it just isn't worth their time etc.
You are pretty much spot on with your summation. We want to know if there is a market for it.
But, my definition of a market most likely is different than Smiteworks definition. They have a business to run and salaries and expenses to meet. I just do this in my spare time, because I enjoy doing it. It isn't how I feed my family. I'm just looking to get things into the hands of people that want them and make some money on the side doing it, mostly to defray the cost of my hobby, and it would be nice to be able to answer my wife when she says "why do you spend so much time in front of the computer, are you earning money at it? with "Why, yes, yes, I am." So, my threshold is likely much lower than what Smiteworks has. That's not to say that I'm going to slave away at my computer making things that no one buys, but, i'm convinced that there are enough people that want this stuff; at the very least, 5e conversions of them would likely have some people interested, to make it worth my time, even if it isn't worth it to Smiteworks.
This is the second time you've dropped in a limited set of kinda awful choices about the development team with no alternate, more benign choices to pick from.
Is it really possible to even consider that Smiteworks doesn't understand the difference between C&C and the various *D&D systems? I mean, given the context of them developing one of the seminal VTT programs and having a history of developing rule sets for many of them in the past.
It's hard to take the choices seriously when presented with only one "obviously correct" answer and that answer includes a ton of assumptions about what other people who aren't yourself are thinking.
Plus I think the meta discussion about the genesis of the thread is off topic, don't you?
This seems more like a poll to gauge interest, to which I'd like my answer of "Yeah, I'd like official Basic/OD&D support, but OSRIC is okay too" to not get lost in a bunch of noise.